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Isolation and characterization of a bat SARS-like coronavirus that uses the ACE2 receptor

Xing-Yi Ge, Jia-Lu Li, Xing-Lou Yang

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Aleksei A. Chmura, Guangjian Zhu, Jonathan H. Epstein, Jonna K. Mazet, Ben Hu, Wei Zhang, Cheng Peng, Yu-Ji Zhang, Chu-Ming Luo, Bing Tan, Ning Wang, Yan Zhu, Gary Crameri, Shu-Yi Zhang, Lin-Fa Wang, Peter Daszak, Zheng-Li Shi

2013 · Nature

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Original HN comments, with labels from simple text rules. A label describes the whole comment and may miss context or irony. Read the discussion to make up your own mind. About the labels

9 selected excerpts · 9 total mentions

trhway
Neutral mention · rule
>The claim you're questioning is "There are horseshoe bats near Wuhan". That again is a strawman argument. I didn't say anything about bats. I was talking about the natural siblings of COVID-19, ie. the coronaviruses using ACE2 (like for example WIV1). Those viruses were found in Yunnan (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711), a 1000km from the Wuhan, and weren't found in Wuhan. Given that Yunnan people there have incomparably higher chances to get exposed to those viruses, there are no chances that one of such viruses was brought on a bat/civet from Yunnan to the market in Wuhan and jumped on human for the first time there without such a virus independently…
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infecting significant number of people in Yunnan. On top of that that supposed natural COVID-19 virus supposedly did such a first jump on human in Wuhan market at exactly the same time when the Wuhan lab produced in BSL2 environment (hardly can be called "biosafety" at all, especially for an airborne virus) a chimeric virus by all accounts indistinguishable from COVID-19. It isn't a conspiracy theory. It is probability theory. If we imagine that an event of such vanishingly small probability did happen, then it would be a crown achievement of human science worth 10 Nobels - just think about it - creating the same virus at the same place at the same time as the supposedly "natural" beginning of the pandemic. EcoHealth and WIV would be doing non-stops victory laps, and we would be putting bronze statues of Daszak on every corner of every public street. Instead all the participants - the WIV, EcoHealth, NIH and China government went total denial and "5th amendment" and started that huge PR campaign to spread that nonsense that thinking that an airborne virus can escape BSL2 makes you a racists conspiracy theorist.
DiogenesKynikos
Neutral mention · rule
> we haven't found anyone that interacted with the nearest bat population hundred of miles away This is simply untrue. People work and live in close proximity to bats throughout much of China and Southeast Asia, including in Yunnan province. The mine workers who got sick in Mojiang in 2012 (where RaTG13 was discovered) were literally cleaning out massive mounds of bat poop.[1] There is research that shows that a non-negligible fraction (up to a few percent) of the population in some areas of Yunnan province have antibodies to novel SARS-related coronaviruses.[2,3] Interestingly, it is not known how the people in these studies were infected, and before they were randomly…
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tested for these studies, they were not aware that they had ever been infected. > is unlikely because we would have found the intermediate animal by now There's no reason to expect we'd have found the intermediate species by now. Finding intermediate hosts can be very difficult. For example, it took four decades to identify the likely host species of Ebola, and even so, there's still a huge amount of uncertainty about whether there are multiple host species, and how spillover occurs.[4] > (3) is unlikely because the first case found was in China The frozen food hypothesis that the WHO is looking at is that animals that were raised or caught in Yunnan province, slaughtered and frozen, and sent to Wuhan might have been carrying the virus. Option 4 is unlikely because nobody knew about this virus before it appeared in December 2019. The researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology work closely with international scientists (including in the US, Australia, France and Singapore). They regularly publish identifying RNA fragments of the viruses they discover. The viruses that they have isolated and cultured in the lab are well known, because they've published on them extensively, and because they collaborate with international researchers. They have only isolated three SARS-related coronaviruses (the vast majority of the viruses they discover are only detected as RNA fragments, not "live" virus particles), and those viruses are all much more closely related to the original SARS than they are to SARS-CoV-2. The reason for this is that before this pandemic, researchers focused their attention on viruses that were close to the original SARS (such as WIV-1[5,6]). SARS-CoV-2 and its closely related viruses would have been far less interesting to them. The lab leak theory really is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the scientists at WIV to have discovered a virus that they didn't tell anyone about, including their close collaborators abroad, for them to have secretly isolated it, for it to have escaped from a highly secure laboratory, and then for them to have covered it up. You can assert that all these things happened, but there's precisely zero evidence for it. The alternative is that one of the millions of people who regularly interact with animals that harbor SARS-related coronaviruses got infected, and that as is usually the case, it takes time and painstaking work to determine how, when and where that happened. 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2951-z 2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6178078/ 3. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259005361... 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4014719/ 5. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 6. https://www.pnas.org/content/113/11/3048
frombody
Neutral mention · rule
The US government pulled funding for this, but coronavirus research was allowed to continue because they secured funding before the ban. https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lab-made-coronavi... Incidentally, most of Ralph Baric's research ended up in Wuhan with Zhengli-Li Shi and his team, where their research continued. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985
burfog
Neutral mention · rule
OK. Here is China making a coronavirus like the one causing the pandemic, even acting on the ACE2 receptor and testing it in human cells, publishing it in early 2008: https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 Here they are again, years later, still playing with extremely hazardous coronaviruses that act on the ACE2 receptor in humans: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 This one gene-edits the host cells to have both human and bat traits, making it easier to breed bat viruses into becoming human viruses: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00705-010-0729-6 There are more. The ASM's virology journal published more of generally the same kind of stuff. I can't find the link right now.
kjaftaedi
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You don't need to believe this is a bio-weapon .. although that certainly is now the end results. I'm not implying causation, but what you are saying about them not developing viruses is not true. In fact, they were working on specifically this. Here is an article from January talking about the virus orgins: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/mining-coronavirus-g... How does Shi Zheng-Li of the Wuhan Institute of Virology know so much about this topic? Because he's been working on exactly this for almost a decade. Here's an early paper. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 Years later he ends up working with a team from the US on a man-made coronavirus paper…
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here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 The US government pulled funding for all programs like this, but this one was allowed to continue because they had secured funding before the ban. Discussion here: https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lab-made-coronavi... Whether they accurately predicted the future, or made a huge lab error is up for debate in my book, and is something that should at least be investigated. Lab mistakes happen all of the time, and we're talking about something that has a subsantial ability to spread itself. Here is an expert's unbiased analysis of whether this could be man made: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1221990534643929089.html Given all of this, I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to consider whether or not human error played a role in all of this.
burfog
Neutral mention · rule
Here is China making a coronavirus like the one causing the pandemic, even acting on the ACE2 receptor and testing it in human cells, publishing it in early 2008: https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 Here they are again, years later, still playing with extremely hazardous coronaviruses that act on the ACE2 receptor in humans: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 This one gene-edits the host cells to have both human and bat traits, making it easier to breed bat viruses into becoming human viruses: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00705-010-0729-6
burfog
Neutral mention · rule
That is serious and useful, unlike the groundless claim of natural origin. The lab in Wuhan has been publishing coronavirus research for many years. In some of the research, they cause bat viruses to replicate in human cells by using the ACE2 receptor... exactly as this pandemic does. Here is China making a virus like this one, even acting on the ACE2 receptor and testing it in human cells, publishing it in early 2008: https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 Here they are again, years later, still playing with extremely hazardous coronaviruses that act on the ACE2 receptor in humans: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 When an outbreak of exactly that type of virus happens right next to the lab, the only reasonable assumption is that it came from the lab. If there were a sudden outbreak of smallpox next to the CDC lab in Atlanta, we wouldn't just shrug it off as a natural occurrence. The same applies here.
burfog
Neutral mention · rule
We cave to the Chinese, and this is how they reward us. We're using awkward names (COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2) and less-specific names (coronavirus) instead of Wuhan virus. They then spread the idea that the US performed a biological attack on China. It's time to give up on politely dancing around the truth. This is the Wuhan lab virus. The lab is less than a mile from the market that was initially blamed, and has been creating new coronaviruses for at least the past dozen years. Here is China making a virus like this one, even acting on the ACE2 receptor and testing it in human cells, publishing it in early 2008: https://jvi.asm.org/content/82/4/1899 Here they are again, years later, still playing with extremely hazardous coronaviruses that act on the ACE2 receptor in humans: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 I guess we should be thankful that they published the research. Maybe?
kjaftaedi
Neutral mention · rule
I have no doubt Zhengli-Li Shi likely knows more about this than anyone else in the world https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12711 https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 But given the fact that he and the Wuhan Institute of Virology are at the direct center of the outbreak, I wouldn't trust them not to be covering their own asses if they happened to be at fault.

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