Skip to content
Back to the collection

Does Reinforcement Learning Really Incentivize Reasoning Capacity in LLMs Beyond the Base Model?

Yang Yue, Zhiqi Chen, Rui Lu

Show all 8 authors

Andrew Zhao, Zhaokai Wang, Yang Yue, Shiji Song, Gao Huang

2025 · arXiv

Read the paper
HN score
0
Mentions
3
Readers
3
Months
3
What’s in a score?

From the abstract

Reinforcement Learning with Verifiable Rewards (RLVR) has recently demonstrated notable success in enhancing the reasoning performance of large language models (LLMs), particularly on mathematics and programming tasks. Similar to how traditional RL helps agents explore and learn new strategies, RLVR is believed to enable LLMs to continuously self-improve, thus acquiring novel reasoning abilities beyond those of the corresponding base models. In this study we critically examine the current state of RLVR by systematically probing the reasoning capability boundaries of RLVR-trained LLMs across various model families, RL algorithms, and math, coding, and visual reasoning benchmarks, using pass@k at large k values as the evaluation metric. Surprisingly, we find that the current training setup does not elicit fundamentally new reasoning patterns. While RLVR-trained models outperform their base models at small k (e.g., k = 1), the base models achieve a higher pass@k score when k is large. Coverage and perplexity analyses show that the observed reasoning abilities originate from and are bounded by the base model. Treating the base model as an upper bound, our quantitative analysis shows that six popular RLVR algorithms perform similarly and remain far from optimal in leveraging the potential of the base model. By contrast, we find that distillation can introduce new reasoning patterns from the teacher and genuinely expand the model's reasoning capabilities. Overall, our findings suggest that current RLVR methods have not yet realized the potential of RL to elicit truly novel reasoning abilities in LLMs. This highlights the need for improved RL paradigms, such as continual scaling and multi-turn agent-environment interaction, to unlock this potential.

Metadata: arXiv. Abstracts retain their original authors’ rights.

In the conversation

Original HN comments, with labels from simple text rules. A label describes the whole comment and may miss context or irony. Read the discussion to make up your own mind. About the labels

3 selected excerpts · 3 total mentions

thesz
Neutral mention · rule
> The tokens it "predicts" aren't sampled from any naturally occurring distribution; the model's output is the result of an optimisation process that rewarded behaviour that was useful, and that's fundamentally different. https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.13837 "Surprisingly, we find that the current training setup does not elicit fundamentally new reasoning patterns. While RLVR-trained models outperform their base models at small k (e.g., k = 1), the base models achieve a higher pass@k score when k is large. Coverage and perplexity analyses show that the observed reasoning abilities originate from and are bounded by the base model. "
anakin87
Neutral mention · rule
I experimented with GRPO lately, since I am fascinated by models learning from prompts and rewards - no example answers needed like in Supervised Fine-Tuning. After the DeepSeek boom, everyone is trying GRPO with GSM8K or the Countdown Game, but I wanted a different challenge. So I opted for teaching a model to create a schedule from a list of events and priorities. Choosing an original problem forced me to think about the problem setting, generate data, choose the base model, design reward functions, and run multiple rounds of training, hoping that my model would learn something. A fun and rewarding experience :-) I learned a lot of things, that I want to share with…
Read the full comment
you. --- - Blog post: https://huggingface.co/blog/anakin87/qwen-scheduler-grpo - Code: https://github.com/anakin87/qwen-scheduler-grpo - Hugging Face collection (dataset and model): https://huggingface.co/collections/anakin87/qwen-scheduler-g... --- Some hot takes from my experiment - GRPO is cool for verifiable tasks, but is more about eliciting desired behaviors from the trained model than teaching completely new stuff to it. https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.13837 - Choosing the right base model (and size) matters. - "Aha moment" might be over-hyped. https://oatllm.notion.site/oat-zero - Reward functions design is crucial. If your rewards are not robust, you might experience reward hacking (as it happened to me). - Unsloth is great for saving GPU, but beware of bugs.

Keep following the thread.

More in Machine learning

More from the same topics.