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On proof and progress in mathematics

William P. Thurston

1994 · arXiv

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From the abstract

In response to Jaffe and Quinn [math.HO/9307227], the author discusses forms of progress in mathematics that are not captured by formal proofs of theorems, especially in his own work in the theory of foliations and geometrization of 3-manifolds and dynamical systems.

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20 selected excerpts · 29 total mentions

physidev
Strong recommendation · rule
I think the viewpoint articulated in this post fits quite well with the one expressed in the often-shared "Programming as Theory-building" article (I think it was shared here just a few days ago). Scientists, mathematicians, and software engineers are all really doing similar things: they want to understand something, be it a physical system, an abstract mathematical object, or a computer program. Then, they use some sort of language to describe that understanding, be it casual speech, formal mathematical rigor, scientific jargon -- or even code. In fact, thinking about it, the code specifying a program is just a human-readable description (or "theory", perhaps) of the…
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behavior of that program, precise and rigorous enough that a computer can convert the understanding embodied in that code into that actual behavior. But, crucially, it's human readable: the reason we don't program in machine code is to maximize our and other people's understanding of what exactly the program (or system) does. From this perspective, when we write code, articles, etc., we should be highly focused on whether our intended audience would even understand what we are writing (at least, in the way that we, the writer, seem to). Thinking about cognitive load seems to be good, because it recognizes this ultimate objective. On the other hand, principles like DRY -- at least when divorced from their original context -- don't seem to implicitly recognize this goal, which is why they can seem unsatisfactory (to me at least). Why shouldn't I repeat myself? Sometimes it is better to repeat myself!? When should I repeat myself?? If you want to see an example of a fabulous mathematician expressing the same ideas in his field (with much better understanding and clarity than I could ever hope to achieve), I highly recommend Bill Thurston's article "On proof and progress in mathematics" <https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236>.
joewferrara
Strong recommendation · rule
This essay by the same person who answered the mathoverflow post greatly expands on the ideas in the post. https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236.pdf It’s a great read for young people interested in mathematics and influenced me while in undergrad deciding to persue a PhD in math. Thurston, the author, was one of the best mathematicians of his time.
ssivark
Strong recommendation · rule
I highly recommend Bill Thurston’s gem of an article On proof and progress in mathematics https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236 Talks about the human aspect of pursuing mathematical research, how they shape the attitude of the field towards a problem abs are crucial in progressing towards knowledge. Should be very readable for everyone; no formal math as such.
mreid
Strong recommendation · rule
Great points, especially the one on multiple perspectives. If you haven't read it already I highly recommend Thurston's essay "On proofs and progress in mathematics" - http://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236 .
BeetleB
Recommendation · rule
The essay On Proof and Progress in Mathematics by a Field's medalist is worth reading: https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236 He wrote it in 1994. He writes about how he almost "destroyed" a subdiscipline in mathematics by becoming so good at it that he outclassed everyone. PhD students were advised to stay away from the whole field. When he discovered this, he realized his error was that he was focusing on producing results, and not focusing on explaining his thought process. It's that thought process that is valuable in advancing the frontier - results alone won't do it. It didn't matter how many theorems he proved, if he was the only one who had the mental framework in…
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mind on how to think about the whole field. I'm sure we've come across abstruse books where every theorem has a rabbit being pulled out of a hat, whereas other readers find it intuitive. It's because the latter has developed a mental model for the discipline, and you haven't. So he set about slowing down, and focusing on holding lots of seminars where he worked with other mathematicians to explain the thought process. Eventually others started publishing proofs of key theorems. When people publish in a journal, they are not merely doing it to show the result. They are having a conversation with other mathematicians. If they cannot explain their own proof, they're not having a conversation. This is why even decades after the Four Color Theorem was proved, plenty of mathematicians don't consider it "mathematics".
mrkgnao
Recommendation · rule
You're not stupid. At least, there is very little chance that the math you're trying to work on right now requires super-normal cognitive abilities of any sort: it's more about learning to be comfortable with the ambiguity or lack of comprehension that the process of learning entails. Here's a grab-bag of stuff that have helped me (and still do) lift myself out of "damn I'm dumb" situations such as the one you seem to find yourself in. "Does math have to be ambiguous or cryptically written? That doesn't sound right." Well, no. Sometimes, the solution is just "get a better book" (although, see [-1]). However, even extremely well-written books will skip over certain details…
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(which ones they elide depends on the target audience), for the simple reason that it a) massively shortens the book b) maintains the "flow" well, instead of stopping every few sentences to distract the reader with ideas not directly relevant to the argument c) acts as a natural method to help people choose materials: if you're hitting things you can't understand or even parse every two lines, maybe you'd be better served by coming back to it a while later? In other words, the skipped details and "why would that be the case?" are going to be there even in books that are considered masterpieces of mathematical writing, and everyone encounters them and learns to deal with them. So what do you do when you hit the inevitable "yeah, right, that's trivial, suuuuuure" next time? To paraphrase someone I can't place right now, you either go under it, over it, around it, and -- if all those fail -- then ($deity willing or no) you push right through it. (Exercise for the cough careful cough reader: what do I mean?) Less faux-metaphorically, try * skipping forward a little -- new ideas do not have to be learned and absorbed linearly; case in point: the next paragraph goes into detail on this :) * checking out another book on the same topic * asking a question on "MSE" / math.stackexchange.com (the /r/math subreddit is good too) * checking out the extremely friendly MSE chatroom, which I credit with fixing a ton of my "I am just stupid" moments * looking for lecture notes (shameless plug: [0]) online * (failing everything above) spending a day walking around your house with your hands squeezing your head from the sides, trying to mimic the romantic picture of the tortured-genius lonewolf-mathematician-in-training and somehow trying to become more intelligent by increasing the density of your brain matter until you've triumphed over whatever puny margin-note was keeping you occupied Also note that mathematical understanding and intuition always, always grow organically. You often end up understanding something "properly" years after you stop struggling with it, and it only gets better as you learn things and see how disparate ideas fit together or even become special cases of a general concept, or variations upon a basic theme. This is touched upon in Terry Tao's excellent career advice essays[3], which are aimed at students learning to make sense of the (mathematical) world: in particular, I'd recommend * https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/there%E2%80%99s... * https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/does-one-have-t... Grothendieck talks about his journey (see [4]) himself, and his writing is beautiful (if also prone to creating a ton of hope in young people encountering this anecdote for the first time). It's profound, but not an authoritative account of what it means to do mathematics, by any means (just like Hardy's A Mathematician's Apology). > Since then I’ve had the chance in the world of mathematics that bid me welcome, to meet quite a number of people, both among my “elders” and among young people in my general age group who were more brilliant, much more ‘gifted’ than I was. I admired the facility with which they picked up, as if at play, new ideas, juggling them as if familiar with them from the cradle–while for myself I felt clumsy, even oafish, wandering painfully up an arduous track, like a dumb ox faced with an amorphous mountain of things I had to learn (so I was assured) things I felt incapable of understanding the essentials or following through to the end. Indeed, there was little about me that identified the kind of bright student who wins at prestigious competitions or assimilates almost by sleight of hand, the most forbidding subjects. In fact, most of these comrades who I gauged to be more brilliant than I have gone on to become distinguished mathematicians. Still from the perspective or thirty or thirty five years, I can state that their imprint upon the mathematics of our time has not been very profound. They’ve done all things, often beautiful things in a context that was already set out before them, which they had no inclination to disturb. Without being aware of it, they’ve remained prisoners of those invisible and despotic circles which delimit the universe of a certain milieu in a given era. To have broken these bounds they would have to rediscover in themselves that capability which was their birthright, as it was mine: The capacity to be alone. Some of the stuff on this page[1] is very helpful, whatever your current level of knowledge. Ctrl-F "tendrils". You might find Thurston's essay "On Proof and Progress in Mathematics" (arXiv link: [2]) interesting too. Good luck! [-1] There are some well-known books that students are almost always advised to come back to later (and there are probably more that they're advised to not bother with, ha). [0]: http://refinator.herokuapp.com/ [1]: http://math.stanford.edu/~vakil/potentialstudents.html [2]: https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236 [3]: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/ [4]: https://quomodocumque.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/the-capacity-...
bkcooper
Recommendation · rule
That's an excellent response. In one of the comments on it, there is a link to a paper[1] by Thurston that is well worth your time. I found it an inspiring read. [1] http://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236
fultonn
Neutral mention · rule
People say similar things about automation of software engineering. Different, but similar. I'm deeply suspicious. I do not yet have a concise statement for why, but a lot of literature on the sociology of knowledge work sort of points at my thoughts. Section 5 of the Thurston article cited by Tao touches the elephant. Raduchel's article on the economics of software [2] also touches it. I've tried to put words to this for a few years. I think I'm just going to start writing versions of it as see if that helps me shape the thought into something more concise. So, in the spirit of this article's style, here are some postulates: 1. There is a sociological process happening…
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in the production function during knowledge work. 2. That production function and the associated sociological process spans years or even decades, and must outlast many of the artifacts that are produced during the early years of the function. 3. You cannot get the right lines of code or the right theorems proved without running that sociological process alongside the artifact production process. 4. It is impossible to completely separate the sociological process from the artifact construction process. If you just iterate on artifacts then too much of the required hidden state is lost to make progress in the right direction. This is true even if you include distilled artifacts capturing pieces of the sociological process (eg meeting notes, documentation, commit logs, prompts). 5. So you need that sociological process, or something like it, to still happen. 6. For a lot of knowledge work that process plays out in extremely high-fidelity social interactions [3] that we have not yet captured in the datasets that would be required to reproduce those dynamics. 7. And even if we do collect that data, our current architectures and training algorithms and hardware would be useless given the size of the datasets. So: the technology today gives us the ability to iterate on the production of artifacts. But it does not sufficiently simulate the social process which gives rise to the Right artifacts. This isn't exactly what I actually think, but it's a version of the thing that I intuit when I watch heavy use of AI in both software projects and formalization projects. And simulating that process feels way harder than people are currently assuming. [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236 Section 5. [2] https://www.nationalacademies.org/read/11587/chapter/11 pp 166-168. [3] there is a reason we still gather in-person around white boards, and why doing so is more crucial for some types of work than others.
enugu
Neutral mention · rule
Don't think you should be intimidated just by reading the article itself. It is using several domain specific terms. But you would encounter that in many other contexts - for instance a group discussing an intricate board game you are seeing for the first time. However, unlike board games where the concepts can be explained to you in a few minutes (usually it becomes clear only when you play), a lot mathematics especially algebraic geometry/number-theory can have many layers of dependencies which takes years to absorb. It would be interesting to compare it to understanding a large open source project like the Linux kernel, well enough to contribute. I would say it is not…
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so conceptually deep as mathematics of the article (while still having a few great ideas). But understanding the source would require familiarization with 'tedious details' which incidentally, what this article is also about. So the issue, stated this way, is not so much raw talent as time and effort. This leads to the topic of motivation - finding something great in an idea can lead to investment in the subject. For those more talented, the journey might be easier. Alan Kay's maxim is crucial - a change of perspective can simplify things relative to 80 extra IQ points. A long sequence of technical steps can be compressed into a single good intuitive definition/idea like the complexity of navigating a path becomes clear from a higher viewpoint. Grothendieck, considered by many to be the best mathematician of the past century, made the point that there were several colleagues who were more proficient at symbolic manipulation. But, he was able to look at things with a more foundational perspective and could make great contributions. Here's a good essay by Thurston "Proof and Progress in mathematics". https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236 He discusses this problem of being intimidated by jargon.
svat
Neutral mention · rule
TLDR it's 286,386,577,668,298,411,128,469,151,667,598,498,812,366 — there, saved you a click. [I wrote this comment as a parody of a frequent kind of comment that thinks that the point of an article is the "answer" to the headline, but I'm also reminded of this line from the Fields medalist William Thurston's very insightful "On Proof and Progress in Mathematics" (https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236): > They might print out a table of the first 10,000 primes, only to find that their printout isn’t something they really wanted after all. They discover by this kind of experience that what they really want is usually not some collection of “answers”—what they want is understanding. ]
oblmov
Neutral mention · rule
All of the mathematicians I mentioned believed philosophy was relevant to their mathematical work, and that period of work on the foundations of mathematics was accompanied by extensive discussion of the work of Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein, etc. Even if we pretend philosophy never involves rigorous proofs, mathematical theorems do not spring out of thin air, and saying "anything that isn't a formal, rigorous proof is useless to mathematics" is like saying "anything that isn't a finished house is useless to the process of building a house". https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236.pdf discusses this in more detail. Here's a paper by Tarski, widely cited by both mathematicians…
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and philosophers and containing both formal and informal reasoning: http://www.thatmarcusfamily.org/philosophy/Course_Websites/R... I don't know how one could "remove the philosophy" from this work without making it far less useful to mathematicians. The entire reason the T-schema is used in model theory is because of Tarski's philosophical argument that it provides a meaningful definition of truth.
throwaway81523
Neutral mention · rule
There is mathoverflow.net and its meta site as math researcher hangouts, plus ncatlab.org for category theory, and various sites, blogs, mailing lists etc. for other fields. You might also like Bill Thurston's famous article "On Proof and Progress in Mathematics", which says not so much that math is social, but that human mathematicians want personal understanding of mathematical truths. So black box computer-checked but human-incomprehensible proofs aren't of that much appeal. https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236
jasonhong
Neutral mention · rule
Famed mathematician William Thurston has a good response here (from On Proof and Progress in Mathematics https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236.pdf): "The rapid advance of computers has helped dramatize this point, because computers and people are very different. For instance, when Appel and Haken completed a proof of the 4-color map theorem using a massive automatic computation, it evoked much controversy. I interpret the controversy as having little to do with doubt people had as to the veracity of the theorem or the correctness of the proof. Rather, it reflected a continuing desire for human understanding of a proof, in addition to knowledge that the theorem is true. On a…
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more everyday level, it is common for people first starting to grapple with computers to make large-scale computations of things they might have done on a smaller scale by hand. They might print out a table of the first 10,000 primes, only to find that their printout isn’t something they really wanted after all. They discover by this kind of experience that what they really want is usually not some collection of “answers”—what they want is understanding."
raincom
Neutral mention · rule
Human understanding is critical. See what Bill Thurston said:"The rapid advance of computers has helped dramatize this point, because computers and people are very different. For instance, when Appel and Haken completed a proof of the 4-color map theorem using a massive automatic computation, it evoked much controversy. I interpret the controversy as having little to do with doubt people had as to the veracity of the theorem or the correctness of the proof. Rather, it reflected a continuing desire for human understanding of a proof, in addition to knowledge that the theorem is true." From Bill Thurston: “On Proof and Progress in Mathematics”, Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society, 30(2), 161-177 https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236
davmre
Neutral mention · rule
The great thing about math research, or really research in any field, is that it's highly parallelizeable. There are a few geniuses like Terry Tao exploring specific directions of thought, but there are so many things to think about and problems to solve that even the best researchers can only focus on a very small fraction. For every genius there are hundreds of other researchers who are only, say, 10% as productive (this is maybe your typical professor at a top-20 school), but through virtue of numbers they can explore a much wider range of problems and have a large aggregate impact. Fetishizing of genius makes for fun pop-science articles but is not really reflective…
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of how the bulk of research gets done. Of course, even if it doesn't require genius, making serious research contributions in mathematics does typically require many thousands of hours of training and hard work (usually in the form of a PhD) which most people are not going to dedicate their lives to. Given this, I really like Bill Thurston's perspective, from the famous essay "On proof and progress in mathematics" (http://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236), which is that proving new theorems is only a small part of the project of mathematics. The real goal is to increase humanity's mathematical understanding, which does not necessarily grow monotonically: there are plenty of results proved 100 years ago that are not known or understood by any currently living mathematician, thus have been "lost" to the mathematical community. And of course there are new people born every day who know no math as all, so understanding of mathematics will tend to decrease unless people actively work to sustain it. In this view, understanding and communicating mathematical insights is just as important and valid a part of the intellectual process as proving new theorems, and requires a different set of talents. Plenty of great researchers are not great communicators, and vice versa. (Terry Tao actually is an excellent writer, but again he's only one person and there's a ton of math out there to be shared). You may not know as much math as Terry Tao, but anyone on HN probably knows more than the vast majority of adults (the bar here is really low), and the world at this moment is certainly not suffering from a surplus of mathematical thinking. So whatever your background and abilities, there are almost certainly lots of useful ways to contribute.
gjm11
Neutral mention · rule
No disrespect, but dkural's idea of what mathematics is about is no more irrelevant than sillysaurus2's or yours, and dkural's view is quite well represented among research mathematicians, first-rate ones included. For a famous example, see William Thurston's "On proof and progress in mathematics" at http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/9404236v1.pdf .

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